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Topic: Pledge of Allegiance (Read 2481 times)

Addams
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Pledge of Allegiance
« on: Jun 27^th, 2002, 1:09pm »

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The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals on Wednesday struck down a morning ritual for schoolchildren across the country -- the recitation of the pledge of allegiance.

A divided three-judge panel held that the words "one nation under God" violate the Establishment Clause separating church and state, making the court the first to sustain a constitutional challenge to public invocations of God that had, until now, been ruled merely ceremonial.

(as reported on June 27, 2002 at law.com)

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crypto
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #1 on: Jun 27^th, 2002, 1:42pm »

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I would be very surprised if the Supreme Court didn't overturn the ruling of the Appeals court.

FWIW, I think the wording should stay the way it is. Children have the right not to resight the pledge and not be repremanded for it. If we change the pledge, then we have to change our money.

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Irishlass
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #2 on: Jun 27^th, 2002, 1:59pm »

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Oh, how I hate to admit this, but I remember when the Pledge did not contain "under God". That's right folks, it was put into the pledge in 1954 when Eisenhower was president. I was in the second or third grade at the time and I remember having to relearn the Pledge.
I think the "In God We Trust" has always been on our money, correct me if I am wrong on that one. Anyway, I think it should be left the way is is now and I believe the Supreme Court will eventually uphold that. I guess we will just have to wait and see.

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MzzJoplin
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #3 on: Jun 27^th, 2002, 2:17pm »

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In my opinion, I don't see why they don't just remove the "under god" part ... it wasn't there to begin with, so what's the big deal about them taking it back out?

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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #4 on: Jun 27^th, 2002, 2:55pm »

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i really have nothing to add here because i am canadian and don't understand the importance of the pledge.

could someone explain it to me? Huh

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DanDC99
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #5 on: Jun 27^th, 2002, 2:58pm »

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Does that mean we have to change our court system where we swear on the bible too?

My best solution is that they make it optional... say it whatever way you like. I doubt that would fly with the ilk who wanted it gone, though...

From what I understand (although I havent read it myself), this same guy want "In God We Trust" off of the money too, so I guess we will have to recall it, or use unconstitutional money...

FWIW, the court who ruled in this case is the MOST overturned in the country, according to news reports.. Maybe that can give us an idea on the chances of this being overturned...

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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #6 on: Jun 27^th, 2002, 5:03pm »

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This ruling from this particular Court is rideculious. But the 9th Circuit has a past history of stupid, off the wall rulings so I'm not really surprised. This ruling will be overturned so fast it is sure to be an embarrasment to the Court.

It has already been ruled that if anyone doesn't want to say the Pledge, they don't have to, so to impose this kind of political correctness and nit-picking to each and every word is assinine. If you were to extend the "thinking" (and I almost regret calling it "thinking"), of this particular Court, we would no longer be able to sing God Bless America, hell, we couldn't even sing John Denver's song, "Thank God I'm a Country Boy"!!!!!!!!!!!!

If this particular gentleman takes SUCH offense to the word "God", he can send me all his money and I will take care of it for him. He can then use beads, corn kernels or whatever for HIS currency if that would make him feel better!!!!
He got what he wanted, - - - -
- - - - - his 15 minutes of "fame".

Political correctness is a damn crock!! Angry

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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #7 on: Jun 27^th, 2002, 5:19pm »

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on Jun 27^th, 2002, 5:03pm, Bumper wrote:

It has already been ruled that if anyone doesn't want to say the Pledge, they don't have to, so to impose this kind of political correctness and nit-picking to each and every word is assinine. If you were to extend the "thinking" (and I almost regret calling it "thinking"), of this particular Court, we would no longer be able to sing God Bless America, hell, we couldn't even sing John Denver's song, "Thank God I'm a Country Boy"!!!!!!!!!!!!

Bumper you are so good at "stating it like it is!" Thanks for this. In Canada it is no longer mandatory to swear on the bible either. You swear based on your own personal beliefs system. Until you mentioned it I did not know that the pledge was optional.

thanks for that insight.

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BlankWillWin
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #8 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 6:53am »

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Well, swearing on the Bible is optional here, as well. If you're Hindu, or Pagan, or an Athiest, or you just want to, you can "affirm" that you will tell the truth in court, or uphold the Constitution in your elected office. Given that the "under God" phrase was added to the Pledge in 1954, by the McCarthy-era Congress, at the urging of the Knights of Columbus, a Catholic organization, and the Constitution provides not only the freedom to worship as you please, including the freedom to NOT worship some monotheistic deity, but also the freedom to NOT worship at all, I think the 9th Circuit made the right decision. Asking a 2nd grader to stand and make the choice between defying her father's belief system by saying the Pledge, or defy her teacher and her peers by NOT saying the Pledge is not the way I envision the Constitution protecting my rights.

Eric.

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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #9 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 7:09am »

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on Jun 27^th, 2002, 2:55pm, eastendgirl wrote:

i really have nothing to add here because i am canadian and don't understand the importance of the pledge.
could someone explain it to me? Huh

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'I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.'

It's something that every American kid stands and says every morning in school, and as such, it's part of American culture, moreso than even the National Anthem, since at least when I was in school, we didn't sing that every day. People, generally don't think about it much, and for most kids, it's just part of the morning routine, and largely without significance, but it's part of the American psyche, and as such, when it gets challenged, America's jingoistic, "My country, right or wrong!" spirit tends to go into overdrive.
Given that most of the people in Congress were in school before 1954, most of Congress learned the Pledge without the phrase "under God" in it, so their impassioned defense of the phrase smacks of pleasing the Moral Majority and the Christian Coalition, rather than any sincere desire to "defend America".

Eric.

« Last Edit: Jun 28^th, 2002, 7:12am by BlankWillWin »

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DanDC99
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #10 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 8:21am »

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FYI, saying the pledge is also optional, at least in that school district from my understanding of things....

Am I wrong in that? I wish I could find the article in which I saw it.....

If that is the case, is it different than the optional swear on the bible thing? If it isn't, would that be a solution? To just make the pledge optional?

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crypto
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #11 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 8:54am »

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Here ya go Dan:

It was not until 1942 that Congress officially recognized the Pledge of Allegiance. One year later, in June 1943, the Supreme Court ruled that school children could not be forced to recite it. In fact,today only half of our fifty states have laws that encourage the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance in the classroom!

site: http://www.usflag.org/the.pledge.of.allegiance.html

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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #12 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 9:34am »

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Thank you , sweetie...

OK, it seems to be very close to the swearing on the bible issue in terms of being optional and not mandatory. So, what is the difference? And is the issue really that the words are there, rather than that this guys kid was allowed to say it at school?

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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #13 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 9:48am »

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Update on the ruling:

A day after he shocked the nation by declaring the Pledge of Allegiance unconstitutional, a federal appeals court judge put his ruling on hold Thursday.

see attached article:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/772714.asp?0dm=C16RN

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Pocket
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #14 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 10:43am »

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Bumper...I'll stand in line for some of that guy's money. He can use the barter system from now on....or sing for his supper.

Having said that, being a senior citizen, (OH that smarts) as a child I didn't memorize "under God". In any gathering where the Pledge is recited, there is a rumble/fumble over that phrase. That's because the older ones didn't learn it that way.

While I do believe the separation of church and state is important, this is the kind of thing to trigger all kinds of responses. There needs to be some common sense with these issues. Saying the Pledge isn't mandatary, saying "under God" isn't mandatory, so why is this an issue at all?

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BlankWillWin
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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #15 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 11:15am »

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on Jun 28^th, 2002, 10:43am, Pocket wrote:

While I do believe the separation of church and state is important, ... There needs to be some common sense with these issues. Saying the Pledge isn't mandatary, saying "under God" isn't mandatory, so why is this an issue at all?

Let's say that during the Kennedy Administration (John Kennedy was the first Roman Catholic US President, and there was some hysteria during his election campaign about whether he would "obey the Constitution, or obey the Pope"), a law had been passed which said, "All Jews must attend Roman Catholic sevices on Sunday morning, and stand when the congragation stands, and kneel when the congregation kneels, but they don't have to sing, pray, or take communion, and they are still free to attend Jewish services on Saturdays." The Catholics could argue that the law didn't restrict the Jews freedom of religion, but it seems clear to me that the Jews would view the law as a governmental endorsement of a particular religious viewpoint, and as an attempt to influence/coerse them into converting to Catholicism.
The man filing suit here is an Athiest. He not only doesn't believe in God, he believes there is NO God, and that is a key tenent of his "belief system". Forcing his daughter to either say, "one nation under God" or to just to stand in respectful silence while her friends and her teacher (an authority figure who knows "everything") proclaim that the country she loves is under the protection of a Supreme Being that her father doesn't believe in, is as antithetical to the 1st Amendment protection as Jews being forced to "attend Roman Catholic services" would be.

Eric.

« Last Edit: Jun 28^th, 2002, 11:33am by BlankWillWin »

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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #16 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 2:44pm »

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I do believe Pocket hit the nail on the head when she mentioned the phrase "common sense". What's had me worried for many a year is that many people in the US of A don't have a lot of common sense (anymore).

That so much effort and thought is being given this subject just brings it home to me on the CS issue. Does it really matter whether under God remains or is deleted? And for that matter, why was the Pledge niggled in the first place? Of course U.S. currency would have to be altered and who knows what next? sigh...

I have a tad more interest in tightening the security against terrorists/ism for the US of A and other countries and/or the skeeters here in Manitoba and/or my grandson's health, etc. than whether a couple of words in the PoA/or currency is deleted or not deleted.

....rant rant rant....lol Wink

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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #17 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 9:29pm »

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I should have made myself clear on one point. I am not against removing "under God" from the Pledge. It was added later by a person who was not the author...not exactly the right thing to do, IMO. The Pledge of Allegiance is a promise to respect our flag, as a symbol of our country and it's freedoms, and as such should be something anyone, of any religion or no religion, should be able to recite, without feeling hypocritical. For now, just don't say those words if they offend.

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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #18 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 11:29pm »

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This whole issue seems to me to be a storm in a teacup. I remember when I first "learned" the pledge in first grade - for the longest time I thought we were saying "I led the pigeons to the flag". Grin

(I read somewhere once that lots of kids were saying it that way, so I wasn't alone LOL.) I had no idea what the words were, I only knew I was affirming my loyalty to my country, and it was neat when it was your turn to get to stand in the front holding up the flag.

Reality is that all of us face issues we don't agree with every day. That's just life. I don't think the little girl having to hear other kids saying "under god" is a good argument against it. I think it's ridiculous. If that's the worst thing that happens in her life she'll be one lucky girl.

As for the "all knowing teacher figure", I remember re-teaching my kids lots of things after the "teacher" had taught them something against what I believed or agreed with. (Including wrong geography in one case!) It was mandatory for my kids to watch "Roots" for example, a complete fiction told as fact. That was a pisser for me, and I totally disagreed with the school for that ruling! But I had the option of discussion with my kids, and of telling them another possibility. That Dad has the same option.

One lesson I tried to teach from issues like these was that compromise and diplomacy are different from lying, or from compromising your fundamental beliefs. It's just realizing, accepting, and respecting the fact that everyone doesn't believe the same way we do. It's called tolerance and flexability. And of course it's called Democracy, the rule of the majority (different from the Republic we say the pledge to, but that's another topic LOL.)

The argument of keeping church and state separate is valid, and one I totally support, but even that one is weak in this case IMO. Nobody is saying any Christian prayers, or prostrating themselves to Allah. They're saying a pledge to this child's - and her father's! country, and the second or so that it takes to say the two words "under god" she can just ignore.

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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #19 on: Jun 29^th, 2002, 12:08am »

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It's always easy to say "if you don't like it just ignore it" to people whose opinions are different from our own, but at the age they are taught the pledge of allegiance a child isn't mature enough to make up their own minds about issues that many adults still have trouble with. And to have a teacher telling them this is a nation "under God" is something you can't reasonably expect a child to ignore, and it shouldn't be taught in schools. You can say it is just a trivial issue, but it obviously wasn't to this one father (I'm very surprised it took 48 years for this to be challenged) and his rights are as important as anyones.. I think justice was done, and I don't think it will be reversed but I hope it isn't.

To me, the pledge is a seperate issue from "In God we trust" being on our currency.. that is just a slogan, this involves teaching our children. It isn't the pledge itself that is unconstitutional, it is teaching it in schools that is. Although the "under God" part should be removed out of respect to the pledge's author, who was opposed to it being added in the first place.

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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #20 on: Jun 29^th, 2002, 8:49am »

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I don't have a problem with the two words being removed from the pledge, especially since they weren't original to it.

My point was that everyone's rights are important, not just one person's. And in a democracy, the majority makes the decisions. To say that one man's rights are more important than the majority is to ignore lots of other people, who's opinions are just as important as his. That same majority has made lots of rulings that I don't agree with. Wink

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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #21 on: Jun 29^th, 2002, 11:43am »

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on Jun 29^th, 2002, 8:49am, LibertyBelle wrote:

My point was that everyone's rights are important, not just one person's. And in a democracy, the majority makes the decisions. To say that one man's rights are more important than the majority is to ignore lots of other people, who's opinions are just as important as his.

(Eric chants a mantra in his mind, as he types, "I will remain calm; I will remain rational." Wink

)

The Bill of Rights is intended to make sure that the majority cannot impose its views on the minorities, when it comes to matters of personal thoughts and beliefs. The 9th Circuit Court is not saying that school children and teachers cannot believe in God, or that God is on America's side. They are saying that according to the Constitution the school can't endorse and sponsor speech proclaiming that belief, because citizens have the freedom to decide whether they believe that, or not.

Eric.

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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #22 on: Jun 29^th, 2002, 7:44pm »

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Eric, you don't need a mantra on my account. Wink

In the basics I agree with you. I agree with the importance of the division of church and state. I just think this particular incident is much ado about very little. There are much more glaring violations of the constitution and the bill of rights that get ignored. Like illegal search and seizure for one example. People have been saying the pledge the way it is for almost half a century and nobody has been hurt by it. I want things that DO hurt to get the press. Like the "liberating" of kids from a cult - by killing them! - at Waco. Cry

And it is true that the majority vote gets their way. I was saying that when they do, we have options in how we respond to it, and one of those is to spend time in conversation with our children - teach them that they won't always have things their way, but that doesn't mean they have to agree - OR throw stones at others because they believe differently. I just don't believe that most kids, if they have some solid communication at home, are so easily brainwashed by two words in a recitation.

I was also trying to say that ALL people's opinions should be considered, including the majority AND minorities. I mean.... I'm a woman, and hated it when I found the guy sitting next to me doing the same job made lots more money! And that still goes on today!

If I had a vote, I expect I'd vote to remove the two words. I just don't think it's all that important an issue.

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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #23 on: Jun 29^th, 2002, 8:02pm »

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I agree that it's a pretty silly lawsuit to bring, actually. In my opinion an Athiest and a Bible-thumping Fundmentalist, have a lost more in common than they do differences, since they both have rigid, limiting belief systems and are generally unwilling to consider that alternative view-points might have validity for other people. Wink

Eric.

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Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #24 on: Jun 30^th, 2002, 10:41am »

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There is a very interesting article in Slate discussing "one nation under God" and "In God We Trust". http://www.slate.msn.com/?id=2067499

Eric.

(Edited to try to fix the link.)

« Last Edit: Jul 1^st, 2002, 7:05am by BlankWillWin »

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