Metropolis Reality Forums - Pledge of Allegiance

Sponsored by: The Fans!

Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register.
Apr 28^th, 2024, 6:58pm

Upcoming Premiere Dates:
Survivor 23, Season premiere
Thursday, September 14 (8:00-9:30 PM, ET/PT) on CBS

Metropolis Reality Forums Ť Pledge of Allegiance ť

   Metropolis Reality Forums
   Community
   The Grapevine (Moderators: Heather, Bumper, Isle_be_back)
   Pledge of Allegiance

Previous topic | New Topic | Next topic »

Pages: all 1 2

Add Poll

Notify of replies

Send Topic

Author

Topic: Pledge of Allegiance (Read 2482 times)

BlankWillWin
ForumsNet Member

The Psychotic Predictor

Gender:

Posts: 1257

Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #15 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 11:15am »

Quote

Modify

on Jun 28^th, 2002, 10:43am, Pocket wrote:

While I do believe the separation of church and state is important, ... There needs to be some common sense with these issues. Saying the Pledge isn't mandatary, saying "under God" isn't mandatory, so why is this an issue at all?

Let's say that during the Kennedy Administration (John Kennedy was the first Roman Catholic US President, and there was some hysteria during his election campaign about whether he would "obey the Constitution, or obey the Pope"), a law had been passed which said, "All Jews must attend Roman Catholic sevices on Sunday morning, and stand when the congragation stands, and kneel when the congregation kneels, but they don't have to sing, pray, or take communion, and they are still free to attend Jewish services on Saturdays." The Catholics could argue that the law didn't restrict the Jews freedom of religion, but it seems clear to me that the Jews would view the law as a governmental endorsement of a particular religious viewpoint, and as an attempt to influence/coerse them into converting to Catholicism.
The man filing suit here is an Athiest. He not only doesn't believe in God, he believes there is NO God, and that is a key tenent of his "belief system". Forcing his daughter to either say, "one nation under God" or to just to stand in respectful silence while her friends and her teacher (an authority figure who knows "everything") proclaim that the country she loves is under the protection of a Supreme Being that her father doesn't believe in, is as antithetical to the 1st Amendment protection as Jews being forced to "attend Roman Catholic services" would be.

Eric.

« Last Edit: Jun 28^th, 2002, 11:33am by BlankWillWin »

IP Logged

The Artist formerly known as Tina, Ethan, Neleh, Helen, Deena, Tijuana, & AmberWillWin.

Pegger
ForumsNet Member

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Gender:

Posts: 10

Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #16 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 2:44pm »

Quote

Modify

I do believe Pocket hit the nail on the head when she mentioned the phrase "common sense". What's had me worried for many a year is that many people in the US of A don't have a lot of common sense (anymore).

That so much effort and thought is being given this subject just brings it home to me on the CS issue. Does it really matter whether under God remains or is deleted? And for that matter, why was the Pledge niggled in the first place? Of course U.S. currency would have to be altered and who knows what next? sigh...

I have a tad more interest in tightening the security against terrorists/ism for the US of A and other countries and/or the skeeters here in Manitoba and/or my grandson's health, etc. than whether a couple of words in the PoA/or currency is deleted or not deleted.

....rant rant rant....lol Wink

IP Logged

Grahndmahmah....s'wonderful

Pocket
ForumsNet Member

Posts: 1437

Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #17 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 9:29pm »

Quote

Modify

I should have made myself clear on one point. I am not against removing "under God" from the Pledge. It was added later by a person who was not the author...not exactly the right thing to do, IMO. The Pledge of Allegiance is a promise to respect our flag, as a symbol of our country and it's freedoms, and as such should be something anyone, of any religion or no religion, should be able to recite, without feeling hypocritical. For now, just don't say those words if they offend.

IP Logged

LibertyBelle
Moderator
ForumsNet Member

Gender:

Posts: 681

Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #18 on: Jun 28^th, 2002, 11:29pm »

Quote

Modify

This whole issue seems to me to be a storm in a teacup. I remember when I first "learned" the pledge in first grade - for the longest time I thought we were saying "I led the pigeons to the flag". Grin

(I read somewhere once that lots of kids were saying it that way, so I wasn't alone LOL.) I had no idea what the words were, I only knew I was affirming my loyalty to my country, and it was neat when it was your turn to get to stand in the front holding up the flag.

Reality is that all of us face issues we don't agree with every day. That's just life. I don't think the little girl having to hear other kids saying "under god" is a good argument against it. I think it's ridiculous. If that's the worst thing that happens in her life she'll be one lucky girl.

As for the "all knowing teacher figure", I remember re-teaching my kids lots of things after the "teacher" had taught them something against what I believed or agreed with. (Including wrong geography in one case!) It was mandatory for my kids to watch "Roots" for example, a complete fiction told as fact. That was a pisser for me, and I totally disagreed with the school for that ruling! But I had the option of discussion with my kids, and of telling them another possibility. That Dad has the same option.

One lesson I tried to teach from issues like these was that compromise and diplomacy are different from lying, or from compromising your fundamental beliefs. It's just realizing, accepting, and respecting the fact that everyone doesn't believe the same way we do. It's called tolerance and flexability. And of course it's called Democracy, the rule of the majority (different from the Republic we say the pledge to, but that's another topic LOL.)

The argument of keeping church and state separate is valid, and one I totally support, but even that one is weak in this case IMO. Nobody is saying any Christian prayers, or prostrating themselves to Allah. They're saying a pledge to this child's - and her father's! country, and the second or so that it takes to say the two words "under god" she can just ignore.

IP Logged

I watch from the wings at the play you are staging - while I'm sitting here doing nothing but aging.
~ George Harrison ~

Tsunami
ForumsNet Member

Posts: 79

Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #19 on: Jun 29^th, 2002, 12:08am »

Quote

Modify

It's always easy to say "if you don't like it just ignore it" to people whose opinions are different from our own, but at the age they are taught the pledge of allegiance a child isn't mature enough to make up their own minds about issues that many adults still have trouble with. And to have a teacher telling them this is a nation "under God" is something you can't reasonably expect a child to ignore, and it shouldn't be taught in schools. You can say it is just a trivial issue, but it obviously wasn't to this one father (I'm very surprised it took 48 years for this to be challenged) and his rights are as important as anyones.. I think justice was done, and I don't think it will be reversed but I hope it isn't.

To me, the pledge is a seperate issue from "In God we trust" being on our currency.. that is just a slogan, this involves teaching our children. It isn't the pledge itself that is unconstitutional, it is teaching it in schools that is. Although the "under God" part should be removed out of respect to the pledge's author, who was opposed to it being added in the first place.

IP Logged

LibertyBelle
Moderator
ForumsNet Member

Gender:

Posts: 681

Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #20 on: Jun 29^th, 2002, 8:49am »

Quote

Modify

I don't have a problem with the two words being removed from the pledge, especially since they weren't original to it.

My point was that everyone's rights are important, not just one person's. And in a democracy, the majority makes the decisions. To say that one man's rights are more important than the majority is to ignore lots of other people, who's opinions are just as important as his. That same majority has made lots of rulings that I don't agree with. Wink

IP Logged

I watch from the wings at the play you are staging - while I'm sitting here doing nothing but aging.
~ George Harrison ~

BlankWillWin
ForumsNet Member

The Psychotic Predictor

Gender:

Posts: 1257

Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #21 on: Jun 29^th, 2002, 11:43am »

Quote

Modify

on Jun 29^th, 2002, 8:49am, LibertyBelle wrote:

My point was that everyone's rights are important, not just one person's. And in a democracy, the majority makes the decisions. To say that one man's rights are more important than the majority is to ignore lots of other people, who's opinions are just as important as his.

(Eric chants a mantra in his mind, as he types, "I will remain calm; I will remain rational." Wink

)

The Bill of Rights is intended to make sure that the majority cannot impose its views on the minorities, when it comes to matters of personal thoughts and beliefs. The 9th Circuit Court is not saying that school children and teachers cannot believe in God, or that God is on America's side. They are saying that according to the Constitution the school can't endorse and sponsor speech proclaiming that belief, because citizens have the freedom to decide whether they believe that, or not.

Eric.

IP Logged

The Artist formerly known as Tina, Ethan, Neleh, Helen, Deena, Tijuana, & AmberWillWin.

LibertyBelle
Moderator
ForumsNet Member

Gender:

Posts: 681

Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #22 on: Jun 29^th, 2002, 7:44pm »

Quote

Modify

Eric, you don't need a mantra on my account. Wink

In the basics I agree with you. I agree with the importance of the division of church and state. I just think this particular incident is much ado about very little. There are much more glaring violations of the constitution and the bill of rights that get ignored. Like illegal search and seizure for one example. People have been saying the pledge the way it is for almost half a century and nobody has been hurt by it. I want things that DO hurt to get the press. Like the "liberating" of kids from a cult - by killing them! - at Waco. Cry

And it is true that the majority vote gets their way. I was saying that when they do, we have options in how we respond to it, and one of those is to spend time in conversation with our children - teach them that they won't always have things their way, but that doesn't mean they have to agree - OR throw stones at others because they believe differently. I just don't believe that most kids, if they have some solid communication at home, are so easily brainwashed by two words in a recitation.

I was also trying to say that ALL people's opinions should be considered, including the majority AND minorities. I mean.... I'm a woman, and hated it when I found the guy sitting next to me doing the same job made lots more money! And that still goes on today!

If I had a vote, I expect I'd vote to remove the two words. I just don't think it's all that important an issue.

IP Logged

I watch from the wings at the play you are staging - while I'm sitting here doing nothing but aging.
~ George Harrison ~

BlankWillWin
ForumsNet Member

The Psychotic Predictor

Gender:

Posts: 1257

Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #23 on: Jun 29^th, 2002, 8:02pm »

Quote

Modify

I agree that it's a pretty silly lawsuit to bring, actually. In my opinion an Athiest and a Bible-thumping Fundmentalist, have a lost more in common than they do differences, since they both have rigid, limiting belief systems and are generally unwilling to consider that alternative view-points might have validity for other people. Wink

Eric.

IP Logged

The Artist formerly known as Tina, Ethan, Neleh, Helen, Deena, Tijuana, & AmberWillWin.

BlankWillWin
ForumsNet Member

The Psychotic Predictor

Gender:

Posts: 1257

Re: Pledge of Allegiance
« Reply #24 on: Jun 30^th, 2002, 10:41am »

Quote

Modify

There is a very interesting article in Slate discussing "one nation under God" and "In God We Trust". http://www.slate.msn.com/?id=2067499

Eric.

(Edited to try to fix the link.)

« Last Edit: Jul 1^st, 2002, 7:05am by BlankWillWin »

IP Logged

The Artist formerly known as Tina, Ethan, Neleh, Helen, Deena, Tijuana, & AmberWillWin.